More on LLCs

More on LLCs

by David Cohen
Posted on 03/29/2009
Two days ago, I lamented about how much of a pain LLCs can be for investors. The comments were lively. Many people pointed out the "double taxation" issue involved with C corporations. C Corporations pay taxes and then when money is removed from the corporation to the investors or founders, another round of taxes is imposed. On the surface, this is a good argument for an LLC but it turns out to not have much of an impact in reality much of the time. The other issue that people pointed out is that valuable losses can be passed through to the personal taxes of the investors and founders with an LLC. While this is also true under ideal circumstances, it turns out to not be true at all in most common cases. Victor Fleischer reached out to me by email with a thorough research paper called "The Rational Exuberance of Structuring Venture Capital Startups" he had written on this very topic in 2003. I found it to be very educational and I think you will too. It's absolutely worth a full read (10 minutes or so) - and it's not as long as it looks because there are many detailed footnotes and supporting references. Here's the gist of his paper as I read it. Many observers of the venture capital industry believe that VCs ignore LLCs primarily because C corporations are the devil they know, and secondarily because they're focused on gains only and are not typically major participants in losses (since they are investing other peoples money and not their own, primarily). This paper goes a long way towards showing why professional investors prefer C corporations and includes many potential surprises such as:
  • Tax losses are often not as valuable as they seem on paper as tax rules prohibit many investors (and entrepreneurs) from capturing the full benefit of the losses.
  • Corporations are less complex than partnerships. "Friction" costs associated with LLCs may make legal costs substantially higher over time for LLCs.
  • Gains are taxed more favorably when companies are organized as C corporations from the beginning (vs converting late, if that is even legally possible).
  • Employee compensation issues are much more complex with an LLC than a corporation. This can cost more and can devalue "options" equivalents coming from LLCs.
In short, at least in my mind, much of the argument for LLCs as being more tax efficient ends up being an illusion and only true "on paper." I hope that this starts another big argument. Blogging is for learning, and your comments and participation are really helping me learn. I thank you for that. Keep in mind the paper is a little old and some tax laws may have changed in the interim. As always, consult your attorney and accountant as I'm no tax lawyer. Incidentally, Victor is returning to CU as an Associate Professor at the law school this June! I'm glad to welcome him back to Boulder after he spent the last few years at the University of Illinois College of Law. I'm excited that he'll be an asset to the local entrepreneurial community once again.
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9 Comments  

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David:

As an attorney the main reason the C corp is preferred by investors is that no investor (especially a passive one) wants to have tax liability for corporate profits if they have not received distributions.

That having been said some investors will use an LLC and have a provision in the Company Agreement that states that distributions will be made to cover taxes.

Regards.
Mark Farha www.dallas-business-lawyer.com

posted on 04/11/2010

interesting. thanks.

posted on 01/13/2010

David - one item that you are not considering with LLC's vs C corps is the impact of new laws with the patriot act. We are a startup but the original founders are from around the world. We started off creating a C Corp, but we couldn't because two of our partners are located in Australia. Based upon the new laws with the Patriot Act - foreign nationals cannot have ownership in C Corps. The only option available to us for the type of company we incorporated under was the LLC.

posted on 01/13/2010

One thing I know for sure is that an LLC and S corp allow you to asorb a lot of expenses that you cant personally with getting hit with AMT.

posted on 03/30/2009

I guess I dont understand the double taxation issue. If I make a million dollars "profit" at abc, inc I am taxed at ~ 35% in the corp. If I then withdraw the $650k as a dividend I pay the dividend tax of 15-20%, soon to go much higher under Obama I assume. Correct? effective tax rate is over 50%, no?

posted on 03/30/2009

I guess I dont understand the double taxation issue. If I make a million dollars at abc, inc I am taxed at ~ 35% in the corp. If I then withdraw the $650k as a dividend I pay the dividend tax of 15-20%, soon to go much higher under Obama I assume. Correct? effective tax rate is over 50%, no?

posted on 03/30/2009

S is an election on a C corp. You can unelect S any time quite easily. Going from S to LLC is the same as going from C to LLC - you can't "convert", you have to create a new entity and transfer stuff.

posted on 03/30/2009

We're an LLC, but we don't expect to raise VC. If I were starting a company today I'd prob do it as an S and then convert if necessary. Do you know if it's hard to go from S to LLC?

posted on 03/30/2009

[...] I posted More on LLCs two days later as a follow [...]

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